The relevant excerpt from Bhaktitirtha Swami's class follows.

Bhaktitirtha Swami:

There is always the position of Guru. The question is the quality of that particular leadership. The question is the endowment and how one is proper because the proper student becomes a proper teacher. So when one has been a proper student, then one has the ability to be a proper teacher. So, there must be investigation on what is the quality of a proper teacher.

Now there is movement in general for impersonalism because people rely more on commodities than community. They rely more on externals. They rely more on what is cosmetic, based on their sense gratification. So there are four basic ways that are becoming very prevalent throughout the society of how people avoid the idea of guru or mentorship connection.

The first way is through the consideration that one is just stimulated and guided by the heart. So you'll find this in many New Age Institutions. You'll find this in many places where there's not a spiritual heritage based on sadhu, sastra and guru, where someone is just ready to honor with the heart. You see the difficulties there because then the mind, the intelligence, often becomes the majority and one can do things, rationalize it all based on ego. So it is a dangerous position.

Or sometimes there is the minimization of the importance of guru based on the fact that one is considering that guru is everywhere and in everything— which can also mean that guru, mentorship, is nowhere.

Or, often there is a tendency, the third tendency to accept disembodied authorities or accept authorities that have passed on because with such, there can be a lack of accountability or you move away from getting your butt kicked or you move away from being chastised or criticized and so, often, people prefer that kind of a system.

You'll find many people in pseudo/spiritual movements that are basically about psychic, mystical things, they can have great attention to the channelers, to the disembodied authorities, to the angels, to the archangels, to the extraterrestrials. But no physical authority because as long as they can do it based on their subtle thing, they can choose and accept, reject according to their mind.

And then there is the minimization of guru based on the disposable guru. That sometimes we have the connection. We use it when we want and when we don't, then we discard it.

So these are some ways that there is gradually an increase in minimization. But we see, like, according to, for instance, in Bhagavad Gita that it is difficult, Bhagavad Gita, 11.54, Prabhupada explains in the purport that without personal guidance, personal guidance from a personal spiritual master it becomes impossible to understand Krishna. We understand that when Krishna Himself comes into this world, every single time He comes and He accepts a personal guru. And He doesn't even need anybody as guru. Siksa guru, diksa guru, parivrajakacarya guru... He doesn't need any type. He doesn't even need sadhu, but every time He comes, He Himself takes such to show us the necessity, the need that is there.

When we go on, we see that Srila Prabhupada was a very special personality. He was a founder-acarya. This is not an ordinary guru. First, Srila Prabhupada was predicted in the Caitanya Mangala as a senapati bhakta. Lord Caitanya says that He will spread the knowledge throughout Bharat-varsa, throughout India, but there shall be one who shall come who shall spread all over the world, who shall be like a bounty-hunter and shall literally go from country to country and spread the message, like reclaiming souls and planting the seeds. The Lord Himself has said like this, that there will be one who will do such and then in the Brahma-vaivarta purana, it mentions that there shall be the mantra upasakha who shall be the global spreader of the Holy Name.

And then Bhaktivinode, in his Toshani—he mentions how there shall be, back in the 1860's, how there shall be one who shall get the Holy Name spread in all different languages so people are chanting "Jaya Sacinandana!"

So, Srila Prabhupada was predicted even before he physically appeared into this particular planet. These are very highly, highly evolved souls who are not just ordinary prophets, ordinary gurus, even ordinary acaryas. But when they are on this level, we see that not only do they do amazing superhuman things but, even before they come, they are fulfilling a great aspect of Krishna's eternal mission as they come and they operate in such a way.

After Prabhupada left the planet, the movement has gone on in different ways and in some ways many, many mistakes. In some ways, many thought that they were little Prabhupadas: little Prabhupadas as gurus, little Prabhupadas as Temple Presidents, little Prabhupadas as Temple coordinators, Temple commanders, sankirtana leaders. It has been a big problem of people trying to be Prabhupada on all different levels.

And therefore, because of such, there has been a lot of manipulation, capitalization, a lot of exploitation and a lot of dealing in situations where we are not fully qualified. Now what does that mean? Our position, it is very simplistic. We are like, for instance, some of us are spiritual masters. And so what is our position? We see that Lord Caitanya says everyone should save the land and become guru, different types of gurus.

But, what are we? We are like what? Just like a young girl at twelve years old— she becomes pregnant and has a child. She is a mother, but she is also a child. She will be a failure. If she does not act as a mother, the child will simply be deprived and the child will suffer. But at the same time, if she acts as if she is a mature mother, the child will also suffer because she is a mother but she is also a child and therefore she must take notice and take shelter of maturity so she can understand how to evolve and to be a proper mother.

(end of section)

Kesava Dasi:

Is it unfair to expect the new disciples to have to accept a conditioned soul as Guru when Srila Prabhupada came and was there for everyone and all of a sudden now, we can't have that? We have to go through a conditioned soul?

Bhakti-tirtha Swami:

One should always try to get the highest type of guidance possible. But what did Prabhupada himself say? Prabhupada himself has said, "Our parampara." He said, "It is not that I am liberated." He said, "I am conditioned." He said, "But my spiritual master, Bhaktisiddhanta is liberated and because I follow him, therefore, I am liberated." This is what Prabhupada himself has said.

K Dasi:

But we all know that Srila Prabhupada is liberated.

BTS:

How do you know?

K Dasi:

We can tell in our hearts.

BTS:

Why then did so many—the majority of servants who served Prabhupada fell down? Because they misperceived certain things! So, they didn't know.

K Dasi:

But. . .

BTS:

So, they didn't know. Some of our greatest scholars who served Srila Prabhupada— they fell down. Many people who, if they had to be with Prabhupada now, they would be so much tremendous offenders. Because we have our perception of Guru as being God, we have a perception of Guru as being some type of magician.

Prabhupada—now I'm not degrading my spiritual master, I'm just trying to trying to identify something happened— Prabhupada would forget verses and fall asleep on the Vyasa seat. So what do we say? Do we say he's a conditioned soul? No. But we have to see through the eyes of the sastra.

But many people around did have problems like that and we should understand that. Many of those who worked with Prabhupada closely did fall down because they started misperceiving or they were not constantly looking at things based on—through the eyes of the scripture. They were thinking that their own eyes, their own intelligence was all that they had to depend on. Mahasringha?

Mahasringha Dasa:

So, Bhakti-tirtha Maharaja, you said that there have been many fallen sannyasis and many fallen Gurus. But. . .

BTS:

And Temple Presidents, and more Temple Presidents than anything else.

M Dasa:

But, when that term was given to Srila Prabhupada, about fallen Gurus. He said, "That term doesn't exist. There is no such thing as a fallen Guru."

BTS:

Just like there is no such thing as a fallen brahmana in the sense. . .

M Dasa:

If a person is a bona fide Guru, there is no question of a falldown. That's what Prabhupada said.

BTS:

No disagreement on that. I am saying that those who have taken the position of brahamanas, who have taken the position of sannyasis— if a sannyasi falls down, he also was not a sannyasi. If a Temple President falls down, he was not a bona fide Temple President. But, one was given that position to act in that spirit, in that mood. So yes, if a Guru falls down, he was not a bona fide Guru.

M Dasa:

Then that bona fide Guru is not a member of the disciplic succession.

BTS:

Just as that Temple President—(Deity curtains open) Jaya Sri Sri Gaura-Nitai! That Temple President was a part of the ISKCON society and was given a chance to represent Srila Prabhupada. So the fact that that person deviated meant that he was not a full, proper representative of Srila Prabhupada. So anyone who does not properly represent Srila Prabhupada has been given a chance and how we use that chance and that determines what our situation is. But Krishna, it says, tesam satata yuktanam bhajatam prtti purvakam idam—He, Krishna says, "I give them." To those who worship Me with love and devotion, He says "I give." So it's all about Krishna, according to how much we are receptive, receiving, then Krishna is doing. If it is not happening, that means we are not letting Krishna be able to do it.

M Dasa:

unclear.

BTS:

I'll come back. Let me just take one or two others.

CHAKRA 28-Oct-98